Simeon

I agree with most of your analysis, too bad the “Have Your Say” site is now discontinued.

Tracy Gayton

Perhaps how we humans imagine God may change or does change- an aura? A bearded man on a throne? oh, wait – perhaps a punk-rocker or alien?
What he looks like is not the point. Even now, how I imagine God and how a child in Africa sees the creator is most likely different. But~ that same child percieves gravity differently than I too. Education, age, culture has taught us a certain ‘idea.’ And in that frame of mind, we can see and feel good about the fact that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. His promises remain the same! Just as gravity promises to hold me close to the earth as I walk or drop me from a bridge if I decide to challege my balance on the rail… niether has changed. Nor will they really change ever, regardless of society. God may be hidden and pushed down, but He is as real as the gravity. Niether is seen, but BOTH are real.

“We may change our beliefs, opinions or insights, but God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.”

This is only true to a theist. But, even taking the position that it is true, who is to say that the picture of the God that we get from the bible is actually anything like the one which actually exists? Shouldn’t the perceived nature of God continually be changing as our understanding of science, psychology and society change?

In the same way, there are fundamental laws of science that are unchanging. We do not understand them all yet, but the difference between science and religion is that when new evidence comes to bear, our model of science is changed to match it, rather than the other way round!

Churches which put profits before their values are wrong. Yes it happens, but it shouldn’t, and churches should be called to account when they do. Religion, however, prevents this calling to account, because they can claim that it is God’s will, whereas a secular community must appeal to our commonalities.

“However, in today’s society, community based on religion is actually very exclusive. Would we not be better off forming new paradigms and creating our own communities, rather than relying on old institutions?”

I totally agree! Unfortunately, secular communities which still uphold good values and are inclusive, and provide all the other services to humanity (such as cultural arts) are extremely few and far between. If one existed, I’d love to join it, but it’s hard to even imagine what it would look like, because to be cultural at all, it would have to recognise the religious nature of our cultural history!

I often find myself doing something very similar. However, in this case, for the sake of debate and intellectual integrity I feel the urge to take the other side.

Regarding music. “Secular music, driven by the profit motive, and without any moral compass, becomes hedonistic, vulgar and, to take advantage of economies of scale, automated.”

This is an enormous generalisation that applies to what is in reality a music that is in the minority regarding production, but in the vast majority regarding exposure. Creativity has exploded in all directions without the guiding hand of the church or state intervening in the cultural arts, and this is a great thing. Even if what is produced is awful, the fact that creativity is unhindered is intrinsically good.

I listen to secular music, exclusively, and it is not driven by profit (exclusively), vulgar and hedonistic, nor is it automated – some of it is written by some of today’s most talented musicians.

Regarding community. The church plays a role it has always played in the sense of creating community, and I agree this is something our society is lacking. However, in today’s society, community based on religion is actually very exclusive. Would we not be better off forming new paradigms and creating our own communities, rather than relying on old institutions? I’m not convinced that something is better than nothing really applies in this case. I don’t feel able to go to a church in order to be a part of a community because I know certain things will always be expected of me. The church is inherently opposed to certain aspects of modern liberalism, and so will always exclude. We need communities that are not built on fixed value sets, but rather built on the acceptance of plurality. Something is better than nothing is not good enough!

yours,
Not an Atheist, Agnostic or Theist